Salon.com Books | The Matrix way of knowledge
The Matrix way of knowledge
From the Gnostic gospels to the visions of Descartes to the shamanic quests of Eastern mystics, the Wachowski brothers’ pop opus weaves a dense web of philosophical and metaphysical allusions. – - – - – - – - – - – -
By Erik Davis
The author seems to like going along for the ride, and is far from a raving fan of the movie. But he does a good job of picking up on a few of the key themes (pardon the pun) that are central to the film.
Most importantly, he digs in on something that several (including me) have talked about: that the matrix in Matrix Reloaded is far less structured and far more ambiguous than we’d been led to believe in the first Matrix.
I was talking to Ernie yesterday about my iPod, and we both laughed about the wildly divergent reactions we had to Matrix Reloaded. The main reason I feel comfortable enjoying the film – incomplete though it is – is that I’m confident that once Matrix Revolutions rolls around, it will radically change what we think we know about Reloaded (in much the same way Reloaded changed what we thought about the first film). If I’m right – and we’ll only know come November – then Reloaded will prove to be a deeper and more intricate piece of work than is apparent right now.
And that would end up being the same reason I appreciated the first so much – like a kaleidoscope, each viewing changed what I saw and how I saw it. That’s an exceedingly rare trait in film today – and is one of the reasons I’m so optimistic about the trilogy.
Erik,
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised that you found this movie lacking on the "deep" end and claim it to be ambiguous.
I suggest watching it again and realizing how carefully the dialogue has been crafted to pose philosophical problems of free will vs. determinism (posited blatantly by the French character), causality, believing - as Morpheus did - "what's best" (pragmatic implications), as well as the rationality/irrationality of faith in the oracle.
My hat is off and I don't need a Matrix Revolutions to make this story fit together any better.
THE ONLY major problem I had was the obvious one: why the hell could Neo use his powers outside of the matrix, as he did in the end? What does this mean?
While I'm left hanging on that one, I also know there's a trilogy to tie THAT PARTICULAR problem up. The rest are knotted buddy.
I'm suprised that more people haven't had this revolution that those that are outside the matrix are just in a sublevel of the Matrix. Thus Neo understands that outside the matrix is still inside the matrix and when he uses his "powers" outside the Main level matrix he is still in the sub level of the matrix.
ReplyDeleteSince the first "version" of the matrix when the massive "crops" were lost they used the "outside the matrix" as a catch all for those minds that will not accept the programming of the First Matrix.
I have to say I disagree with Matt. When neo reaches the source at the end of Revolutions, the "architecht" tells him that he has two choices. Go through the door to the right and pick a set of people to start a new matrix. OR Go through the door to the left and the matrix undergoes a catastrophic failure killing everyone inside. THEN, when the sentries destroy Zion in the real world, all humans will be dead. This seems to imply that destruction of the matrix does not kill the people in Zion (because they are not in the matrix). They must be killed another way (by the sentries.)
ReplyDeleteC,
ReplyDeleteWhen the architect says that he(neo) can choose 23 men and women, 16 women and 7 men to start a new matrix, how does Zion get destroyed, or Reborn? Because he is allowed to start a new zion this gives me the impression that if the "Real world" was not a deeper part of the matrix, then everyone in Zion would be allowed to live. Also, How would a program(Agent Smith) be able to take over a persons body outside of the matrix?
Matt,
ReplyDelete"How does Zion get destroyed?" By a quarter million robots!!! Smith possesses the person with the goatee while he is still in the matrix, and THEN uses the phone to exit the matrix.
Smith, is a program. how can he get out of the matrix? oh guru of the matrix, c... The architect has control of the robots, yes? or am I incorrect in that as well?
ReplyDeletean aside, what do you think Revolutions will be about??
after further deliberation I don't think that what I first stated is correct in that the architect does not have control over the programs. they were just devised to do certain jobs, but the renegade ones outlived their usability.
ReplyDeleteAgent smith has become a renegade program not because he has outlived his usability, but he was partly overwritten by neo in the first movie. What I'm not sure that I can yet pass as a non-fiction is that Agent Smith can Take over a persons body outside the matrix.
There seems to be some consensus building that the end of the movie almost has to be a new Matrix. Given the biblical influence, maybe it's a kind of purgatory? Having this be a machine-created dream world (a reload of the original Matrix we saw in the first film) solves a few riddles:
ReplyDelete- it explains Neo's powers at the end, when he's capable of defeating the sentinels just by using his "powers" that are presumably only effective inside the Matrix.
- it explains Agent Smith's ability to replicate outside the original Matrix.
As for what Revolutions is about, I have to imagine (if the theory above is true) that it's about the fight to get out of the architected reality of the machines and back to a world controlled by man. The films appear to really want to know who controls the environment - man or machine - and I think that's the central struggle. Man controlled the environment until the machines revolted - and now the machines control the environment by creating the matrix. Revolutions will most likely be about how Neo leads the fight to destroy that artificial environment and return to a world where man controls the environment and the machines serve it.
Of course, that suggests a selflessness by Neo - because in that kind of world, his powers are useless...
With all of the biblical references that are in this movie, the selflessness of neo does not suprise me. and if they would be able to destroy the matrix the world would be as it were when neo was Thomas A Anderson.
ReplyDeleteWow, what an amazing middle bit. Interesting what other thought of the film...although I think other thought they were expecting something more different than the first. Hello, check it out...this is the matrix and, well, it is different. The end was simply inspiring and something I had hoped for since the first (I would have written something like that.) Is is a matrix within a matrix? Or is Neo part Agent Smith and vice Versa?
ReplyDeleteA couple of intriging ideas for you to mull over.
Q) Neo is connected to Smith and now is part machine, therefore he can now read/ feel the machines.
or
Q) Neo and the others are still inside the Matrix. Zion is a programme that is "invisible" because it is doing what "it is supposed to do."
i.e; It is there for those who have a 'splinter in your mind' so it acts as a backup to stop a complete system failure.
The Architect mentions that Neo's code needs to be re-inserted to 'revolve' the whole program again, until the anomolies join to form a new Neo. If that is so, how can the 'code' be re-inserted if Neo is no longer part of the system, unless he is still within the system?
These are intriging questions that allow 'those with an eye to see and an ear to hear' can begin a journey within themselves to 'understand the code' that 'governs out life now, in the real.'
Every since I was a child, eight years old to be precise, I always questioned what I saw and heard (felt.) I still maintain a belief that with the right meditation and illumination via compassion, we too can wake up elsewhere, after we have physical died in this existance and ressurrect ourselves in spirit (light/ pure conciousness) in the 'reality' that exists outside the frequency we are part of now, in this physical realm.
All will be revealed in the next part I'm sure. Only 'time will tell'.
Ad.
There's another possibility that I'm surprised nobody's thought of... that the end of the movie was an elaborate scam by the Architect in another effort to assert his "control" of humankind. Consider this: Neo actually is part program and has a certain unique connection to the machine-world... That connection was given to him at the end of the first movie by the Architect as a way to build up his confidence and make him believe that he's more than he really is. At the end of the second movie, when he "feels" the sentinels, he's actually receiving information from the Architect telling his program half that the sentinels are on their way. He asserts the same parts of his brain that he uses inside the Matrix, and the Architect makes the sentinels crash, creating the illusion that Neo stopped them, while at the same time, overloading Neo's brain to shut him up. That would remove the greatest perceived threat to the machine-world, and diminish the humans' confidence to the point that it would be suicidal to fight back... so whether they fought back or not would be irrelevant... they'd still lose. Or am I thinking too much into it? Is it possible to think too much into the Matrix?
ReplyDeleteRick Klau,
ReplyDeleteQuestion for you. When you say your theory would explain Smith's ability to replicate outside the original Matrix? Please explain, because when he starts copying himself (in the fight scene with Neo for example), he is in the Matrix. Thanks.
PS.,
ReplyDeleteWhat do you guys think about free will in the Matrix. I'm sortov a philosopher, so I'll save my opinion until I've heard what other people have to say. Who has free will? What does free will consist in? Etc.
C - I think Smith replicated "outside" the Matrix when he essentially rewrote Bain's code. Bain, the individual in Zion who was about to assassinate Neo, is really a human manifestation of Agent Smith.
ReplyDeleteYet what's not entirely clear is whether he accomplished this "for real" (i.e., that he transcended from code to human form) or that he simply was able to copy code from one matrix (i.e., the one we are aware of, where much of the movie took place) to another matrix (my suggestion that the end of the movie takes place in a parallel matrix, built by the Architect).
--Rick
Neo and Agent Smith are obviously linked, shown by the end of the first film. Therefore the fact that Neo (a human) has the ability to connect with machines (in the real world, if it is..) and Agent smith (an extension of machine) has the abilty to connect with humans lends itself to some heavy philisophical issues of self and reality. It also defies the theme of control and stark seperation between the flesh and compuer lives built througout the film. It gets even more muddled when you add in "renegade" programs debating free will vs choice, a huge issue, but also an allusion to NEO's "Destiny" and how it pertains to the 5 other Neo's the came before him, bassically, all the stuff we're arguing about.
ReplyDeleteSo is there a sub-matrix level? Where does reality begin? It's pretty rad to discuss it, but if the 3rd movie ends by this all being some guy's dream or lab experiment or some shit like that, i'm just gonna quit life.
One other thing...Novemeber is gonna Rock, it might acctually make Reloaded something worth-while (completing it)...did anyone else see the first 45 min and want to throw themselves off the 10th street bypass? Anywho..can't wait.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting discussion. In addition to invoking these enduring philosophical issues of free will and the true nature of reality, I was also struck by the potent political allegories. Particulary, the utopian multiculturality of Zion versus the unreal world of replicating Smiths struck me more than the last film as a critique of corporate globalization. Will humanity all end up at a rave in Zion or will we all turn into identical salarymen like Smith? I think that is a potent question of our times. I love how this movie uses violence and special effects to present these things to many people who primarily came for the rock-and-roll, martial arts and explosions. And the salarymen at Warner Brothers who are raking in the dough don't mind since making money, is how mega-corporations are programmed. The Wachowski Brothers are hacking into the Warner Brothers' matrix! Very subversive!
ReplyDeleteFirst off, Smith is connected to Neo and Neo to Smith. Smith is connected to neo obviously because he told us. The second part was tough to catch, but when Agent Smith tries to Replicate himself into Neo This is where Agent smith gives a part of himself to Neo. I think that the fight scene was so long because the brothers didn't want us to realize what Agent smith had done perhaps, or the build up to it so we would definately catch it. I'm unsure of which is correct. or maybe both are incorrect. you be the judge.
ReplyDeleteMoving on to whether there is a second matrix. When the architect says that if Neo goes through the wrong door he would cause a system failure, but when he goes through that door the system does not halt. Did the system halt and it happened exactly at the moment that neo decided to put his hand up to stop the squidy? This seems to me to be somewhat far fetched, therefore giving light to the second matrix theory. Then they are indeed in a second matrix, the matrix formed to keep those minds with "Splinters" from escaping out into the real world and doing any damage. If there were a first through sixth matrix as the architecht says there were, then the second matrix would indeed have had to be in effect before the distruction of the first matrix unless the first matrix changed and those 23 people were released, but then where did the rest of the population go? did the matrix just pop up there? it's late and I'm confusing myself, hopefully if I have some time to think about this I'll write some time soon. until then I hope I have challenged a few minds to realize the truth...there is no spoon.
Do the machines really even have to provide a "second matrix"? If control is what they are after, doesn’t the prophecy and zion-neo-searching do the same job? In a way, the search for 'the one' is, from the machine's perspective, simply a predetermined certainty of anomaly, the X factor being human choice, rather than how the humans see it, as hope. Thus they're behavior is goverened.
ReplyDeleteObviously, Neo is going to be different from the other 5 anomalies. So what distinguishes him from the others so that the humans can eventually win? His choice to go back to the matrix? His bond with Smith? His dapper good looks? I guess we’ll see.
Why do we have a hard time believing that neo can use his ‘powers’ outside of the matrix. He can manipulate, control, and even create within the matrix’s computer reality, so why can’t he manipulate computer code from outside, especially if HIS ‘code’ is now part computer? (I mean, smith did the same thing flip-flopped if you think about it)
I guess I just have a hard time believing the matrix within matrix thing, somebody convince me.
I also heavily disagree with the matrix within a matrix idea. It is just too easy an explaination for something as deep as the matrix.
ReplyDeleteI think its more likely smith gave neo powers over the machines by accident.
Something that I've noticed, some biblical allusions.
After the Nebuchadnezzar is destroyed, Morpheus says "I have dreamed a dream, but now that dream is gone to me"
This is a similar to a quote by.. King Nebuchadnezzar.. in the bible, Daniel 2:3.
Just something to chew on.
There's more. Although i am ashamed to say that i did not notice this....there are biblical allusions (verses) for each license plate of hero and villain, for those of you who havent already seen it:
ReplyDeleteThe Twins’ truck on the freeway: DE2852. Deutronomy 28:52 — They shall besiege you in all your towns, until your high and fortified walls, in which you trusted, come down throughout all your land. And they shall besiege you in all your towns throughout all your land, which the LORD your God has given you.
Trinity and Morephus’ Cadillac on the freeway: DA203. Daniel 2:03 — I have had a dream that troubles me and I want to know what it means. (NEB)
Agent Smith’s Audi at the beginning: IS5416.
Isaiah 54:16 — Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
I've only seen the movie twice and there is no way I've picked up on even half of the little tidbits weaved into the fabric of the movie, much less the big philisophical issues, but can anyone tell me where Cyrus (from the first Matrix movie) came from? I'm guessing that it will be an issue in the next film but I was wondering if any hints were dropped. I'm asking because when Agent Smith left the Matrix did he go into Bane's body or into Cyrus'? Oh, and when Neo chose the door on the left, wasn't the matrix supposed to crash and kill everyone in it? That unless by going against the predictability of the Architect he accomplished both saving Trinity and the Matrix. Any insight would be helpful. Thanks
ReplyDeleteThe alternate matrix theory could not be resolved in just one more movie... therefore cannot be true. I think it interesting that it would be possible. the signs that point to this being the case are too many and too obvious to be the actuality of the movie.
ReplyDeleteI think that when Agent smith tries to replicate in Neo he gives neo the "functionality" to use his "powers" outside the matrix. This would explain the reason that neo "kills" the sentinel. The fact that he is not connected to the matrix and still does it makes me wonder that there's not more to it than that. but also when the emp is set off this could have something to do with it as well.
There are also biblical references in the first matrix as well, I cannot recall off the top of my head, but I remember there are.
"Particulary, the utopian multiculturality of Zion versus the unreal world of replicating Smiths struck me more than the last film as a critique of corporate globalization. Will humanity all end up at a rave in Zion or will we all turn into identical salarymen like Smith?"
ReplyDeleteThis view only comes through if you go into the film looking for something that isn't there. What work did the Wachowskis do to make Zion a symbol of resistance to globalisation? How is Smith a salaryman? He's a slave to the system. A computer program. Unless you already believe that corporations are men in suits that go around infecting people in order to make identical copies, the Matrix Reloaded contains no critique of globalisation.
I read somewhere that they were going to make another 3 matrix movies, where the kid was suppose to be the main character and that HE was actually the chosen one. Neo takes him under his wing and trains him, prepares him because he will be the one who will lead the human race.
ReplyDeleteAlso did you guys not also think about that maybe the sentinals are designed not to kill neo because he has to be assimilated back into the matrix, so they automatically shutdown when they are near his body? and that maybe the sentinals create somesort of shockwave when shutdown which made neo fall into a coma?
Actually, I thought the Sentinels fell because of the EM pulse. Neo may have thought that he downed them, but his actions merely coincided with the pulse. Neo himself had no control over the "real" world.
ReplyDeleteThe next (final) scene makes reference to the EM pulse.
Am I wrong?
The EMP they were talking about in the last scene, happened earlier in the battle with the five ships, which we didn't see in the movie (I think the video game covers that, but all we see in the movie is the catwalk collapse and accidentally kill a couple crew members). The only person who survived the battle was Smith (or the guy he now inhabits). The way I took that is that Smith fired the EMP, from his hands, causing the ships and the Sentinels nearby to all crash. That's why Smith and Neo are both in the same kind of coma.
ReplyDeleteI could be worng, he might have set off the pulse from whatever ship he was on, in an attempt to sabotage the mission (which worked). But the pulse they are discussing happened a little earlier, and isn't shown in the movie. Has anyone played the game to fill in the blanks? I know it contains a large part of the story not seen in Reloaded.
Just curious that nobody mentioned the Oracle. She seems to know things that are happening outside of the matrix, i.e. neo not sleeping well, etc. Doesn't this add to the theory that zion is just another sublevel of the matrix?
ReplyDeleteAlso, is the Oracle really on neo's side, or is she simply another level of control?
I thought he was holding the door open until the other Twin got there, so that they could both go through without getting separated.
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree with Tedly. The twins need to keep the door open so that they can chase the others.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone thought that maybe the Architect was bull-crapping Neo about the 5 previous Zions and "Ones" to confuse him?
ReplyDeleteThere is no spoon. Better yet, there is no reality!
ReplyDeleteAfter viewing the teaser trailer packaged with the game enter the matrix I've come to the thought that Zion is Real, and each time that Zion is destroyed the Machines memory of where zion is is erased... thus givng the option to rebuild zion in the same place. also has anyone thought that the leader of zion could be the mother of the matrix??
ReplyDeleteAs far as I can remember, no-one said anything about any of the other 5 Matrices being DELETED, just improved upon. I agree with priest, Merovingian and Seraph, are probably previous versions of The One. To that end, in the "sub-level" Zion (which IMO is the Matrix v.5)Neo, still retains his powers from the Matrix v.6(which are now extended due to the Smith input), which explains his ability to stop the Sentinel, in much the same way he did with the bullets in the first movie "The Matrix", and in the fight scene at Merovingian's palace.
ReplyDeleteAs regards the outcome in Revolutions, IMO, Neo has to get out through six levels of Matrices (hence the name Revolutions) to get to the world in which the "machines" are in fact computers much like we have today, controlled by humans ...
P.S. Many of you believe that Neo has since become part Agent Smith (from Smith's input in the "101 Smiths Fight Scene") ... then by the same rule, Morpheus is also now part Smith, since Smith also infiltrated Morpheus' body when Neo was protecting the Keymaker in the Corridor of A Thousand Doors. (Remember? Neo ended up having to save Morpheus from almost certain death, by pulling him out of the crowd of Smiths), so how does that affect Morpheus' role in Revolutions???
Have some interesting quotes on my theory of the other 5 Matrices ...
ReplyDeleteBoudrillard;
"Such a society (in this case Zion), thrown into technological progress, accomplishes all possible revolutions. BUT ALL REVOLUTIONS ARE REVOLUTIONS UPON THEMSELVES"
And confirmation of what the Architect said about the importance of Neo/The One to the Matrix (again Boudrillard);
"The individual is essential to the reproduction of the system"
P.S. In reference to the Mini-Disc that Neo gave Choi becoming vital, as it contains the key to destroying the AI, and having to go back to retrieve it, anyone think that the door on Neo's left was the Nightclub (where Neo originally met Trinity)? I seem to be the only one who thinks that :(
Have some interesting quotes on my theory of the other 5 Matrices ...
ReplyDeleteBoudrillard;
"Such a society (in this case Zion), thrown into technological progress, accomplishes all possible revolutions. BUT ALL REVOLUTIONS ARE REVOLUTIONS UPON THEMSELVES"
And confirmation of what the Architect said about the importance of Neo/The One to the Matrix (again Boudrillard);
"The individual is essential to the reproduction of the system"
P.S. In reference to the Mini-Disc that Neo gave Choi becoming vital, as it contains the key to destroying the AI, and having to go back to retrieve it, anyone think that the door on Neo's left was the Nightclub (where Neo originally met Trinity)? I seem to be the only one who thinks that :(
Have some interesting quotes on my theory of the other 5 Matrices ...
ReplyDeleteBoudrillard;
"Such a society (in this case Zion), thrown into technological progress, accomplishes all possible revolutions. BUT ALL REVOLUTIONS ARE REVOLUTIONS UPON THEMSELVES"
And confirmation of what the Architect said about the importance of Neo/The One to the Matrix (again Boudrillard);
"The individual is essential to the reproduction of the system"
P.S. In reference to the Mini-Disc that Neo gave Choi becoming vital, as it contains the key to destroying the AI, and having to go back to retrieve it, anyone think that the door on Neo's left was the Nightclub (where Neo originally met Trinity)? I seem to be the only one who thinks that :(
ManchesterUnited4Life says:
ReplyDelete'Many of you believe that Neo has since become part Agent Smith (from Smith's input in the "101 Smiths Fight Scene") ... then by the same rule, Morpheus is also now part Smith, since Smith also infiltrated Morpheus' body when Neo was protecting the Keymaker in the Corridor of A Thousand Doors.'
I think Neo and Smith swapped code in the first movie, when Neo entered Smith's "body" and exploded him from the inside. Smith even talked about how they were linked together, before he tried to replicate himself onto Neo. the question then is, how did Smith rematerialize, after Neo exploded him in the first movie? Apparently, the Smith program wasn't deleted after all, and he somehow was able to reassume form inside the MAtrix, and eventually even physically escape the Matrix altogether.
Door to the Left?? in the Architects room? that door was inside the highrise. not the night club... if Neo is going to go and get the disk the night club will have been shut down by the agents still in the matrix.
ReplyDeletePersonally I like the concept behind Zion being the previous version of the matrix with an onion like effect from the others, but that begs the question: if Seraph & Merovingian were previous 'Ones' how did they manage to end up where they are unless One#5 chose One#4, One#3, One#2 & One#1 to help rebuild Zion, but still they are stuck in Matrix #5, the current Zion.
ReplyDeleteAs for the agent smith, why would it be so hard for agent smith to 'download' into a 'Real Person'. If we work on the assumption that there is only 1 matrix and once unplugged you are in the real world, we note that Neo remembers memories from the matrix. "I used to eat at that shop... great noodles",from Matrix 1 just before he visits the oracle. Since memories are in essence just data what prevents other data from being downloaded into the same storage device? (Apart from the moral/ethical attrocities..."It's my brain get out...") BTW, theres a simmilar concept in the movie "13th floor" where a computer program downloads and unplugs from a 'matrix' of sorts.
Here's a very teeny rant, all science fiction movies are very wired, whenever you want to connect to a network etc you always have to physically jack in, you'd think with blue tooth & mobile networks they'd slowly start implementing cell-phone modems at least. Which brings me to the main point. The architect knows the progress of the sentinels & or controls them, there must be a wireless connection of some sort with the sentinels etc (BTW this applies to matrix within matrix theories as well). By the same logic, a connection to the outside world from the matrix, would imply a wireless connection to the matrix from the outside world (notification of progress the architect says we are close to destroying zion ...ok I paraphrased a bit but you get the jist). Keep with me almost finished, The sentinels are controlled by the Architecture or his co-maker through software, so why can't Neo through one of these wireless connections just send out a global "I command you to stop..." into the code controlling the squidy thingys?
got lots more idea's but won't bore you all tonight.
here is one question... All along the first movie before Neo was unplugged, the agents were alreay searching for Morpheus. Then when Neo saw Morpheus, why didn't Neo get transformed into an agent? (aside from the fact that if Neo was dead then there would be no movie)
ReplyDeleteMy thought on the above comment would be because Neo has to eventually get back to the Source, and since the agents are just another program set within the Matrix, they are not really supposed to kill Neo. Agent Smith in Reloaded says "I killed you, Mr. Anderson. I watched you die", but then something happened and Neo destroyed Smith. Smith says that he knew the rules, he knew what he was supposed to do, but he did not comply. Dunno if that makes sense, but this conversation is amazing...glad I stumbled upon it.
ReplyDeleteArchitect says something about machines being prepared for a level of existence. I guess this statement predicts that there are indeed levels in the matrix , i guess the initial matrix(one where humans reside , the normal world) is the first level and Zion is the next level , when a mind hacks out of one he is captured by other. Maybe this statement also predicts that even if layers 1 and 2 (orig matrix and zion) fail there might be more to hack thru for the anomalies till they reach real world and hence the architect is not much bothered by Neos choice since there might be a backup 'level' which might start functioning once these two layers fail (Zion has to be destroyed by sentinel programs since human minds in that layer pose a risk of hacking that layer to a much upper level(near real world) of matrix and be successful in breaking free of the program.)
ReplyDeleteI agree with the inference that Neo is a part program which necesarily has to be associated with a human. The experience of 'The one' contains important data which might help restructure the matrix code so that humans accept the program better. This data(and not the code) is important for the matrix proram to survive , before any more anomalies can break it resulting in a chain reaction (Remember there is no Zion program to capture the anomalies , when Zion is destroyed so will the matrix after a short time since there wont be Morpheus or such captian programs to capture the anomalies into the Zion program resulting in fall of matrix program)
However nothing is mentioned of any other VR environments running anywhere or a backup system by the architect which makes him so sure that he can survive any choice of Neo , be the left or the right door.
I guess revolutions should deal with breaking the next level and into the real 'real world'.
(Comment deleted.)
ReplyDeletewow fucker,
ReplyDeletethat is amazing. you have figured it all out. all the missing links are complete now.
what do you have to say now erik ? you better shut your mouth now because you theory is proved wrong by fucker. you are a motherfucker erik.
ReplyDeletewhen neo stopped the sentinels it looks as if they have been stopped by EMP. In the next scene the group is saved by another ship coming around the corner - therefore that ship has been close enough to stop the sents by EMP, restart its machines and come around to save NEO + friends....
ReplyDeletebtw , how could morpheus leave the matrix after NEO went to meet the architect? he was sitting on the ground with the dead keymaker, one door leading to the 101 Smiths, the other door leading to the architect, the ships operator said before : "...we lost connection, they have entered the door" , so noone to tell morpheus how to find the next exit........ some telephone around?
the merowingian:
ReplyDelete....is the merowingian to be seen at the architects monitor room? all the former ONEs there seem to look like NEO.
the oracle speaks about the merowingian as one of the oldest programs.
in history, the merowingians ruled france and big parts of europe from 448 on. They have been treated as godlike holy priest-kings.
Baighent and Leigh wrote in their grail-book about the merowingians beeing the descendants of jesus, protected by the ordre of the Knights Templar and under protection and leadership of the ORDRE OF SION !
Any idea?
oki, well, we all know fucker did a copy/paste of a web site (which over a thousands fuckers like our fucker tried to make its own or simply didn't give credit to the original author...) ; so Matt, stop babbling and cursing to everyone, this is a theory and a theory is only good till it's proven wrong, just wait a few months, try to grow up, go and watch the movie, then wait till fucker copy/pastes another web site or until you understand everything...
ReplyDeletethanks vijay, i missed morpheus' exit......
ReplyDeletethe commander in the last ship told them about the sentinels destroying 5 ships at the failed counterattack at some pipeline shortcut because someone (bain) triggered the EMP too early. then, after killing the ships, the machines continued digging towards zion..... so there is still time for zion. the surviving ship secretly searched the battlefield for survivors after the fight and found Bain.......
but i wonder, if Bain is the camouflaged Smith, he is unplugged from the matrix as mentioned before, become a virus .......so why didn't the machines kill him also? they are supposed to clean up all the anormalities from the system, remember the agent also fighting the twins, so why not smith?
Agent smith is trying to kill Neo, in both real world and Matrix. If he kills Neo in Matrix he can take all Neo's power for himself, we can understand it. But, what about in the real world?
ReplyDeleteHow could you could take someone's brainpower if you kill the guy in real world? So, it's higly possible that Zion is an another program.
Also, Why he sabotaged the counter attack of humans? He is not working for machines. Is there any advantage for him to destroy humans?
Any body know of the origin of Jason Payne Matrix explained document? I'd also like to know the date of publication - in the first instance. Most sites note a June 12-13. But i'm thinking atleast six months?? prior to release?
ReplyDeleteEasily the best and most succinct arguement yet..! he's probably right
Throwing out some thoughts:
ReplyDeleteHow many councillors are there? Does this number correlate to the number of people that "the one" takes to restart Zion?
Some people can't comprehend Agent Smith being inside Bane. But we are thinking like us. People in the Matrix are being "fed" programming all the time. They are hooked up to a computer, interacting with it all the time. It is quite possible that something could be downloaded into their mind. Think of when Trinity was in the Matrix, she asked someone to download a program to "Hack" the motorcycle.
Maybe when the sentinels went down, it was part of the system faulting as a result of Neo choosing the "wrong" door. The architect said that it would destroy the system.
I still think that the archtect maybe bullcrapping Neo about the previous ones, the only change to this theory would be if the amount of councilors matched the amount of people to restart Zion. Also could the main councilor be a previous Neo? hmmm.
Prometheus:i donot think now that the acrchitect is bullcraping
ReplyDeleteif you have seen The Matrix carefully then u wud notice that when trinity is searching for NEo there are a lot of number counting down to some particular number and the camera then Zooms to 506 this is particularly pointing to the fact that they are moving on to the 6th one or the sixth version...also in part one Agent Smith tries to "hack"inside morpheus' mind to get the code(pay attn to what tank says)so if the human mind can be hacked fropm the matris into the real world it can also be"written' into so it is perfectly possible for smith to do what he does if he knows how to....also Neo says it will take 24 hours for the machines to destroy Zion there is no mention of 24 hours/1day in the architect's speech so where di d this time come from?i donot think that the system should have failed and that being the reason for the sentinals to fall...i have tried to explain neo's capability in one of my previous posts....the number of people in the council may not be neccesarily be equal to 23 since there may be sum1 who dies....also the one may possibly be dead by the time the other one comes in becausse Morpheus says that for 100 years they have fought the machines which means they have been there for that much time ie this "version" of zion........
I don't agree that agent smith can easily convert someone's brain who lives in real world. If that was possible why other agents didn't do the samething long before. Also, there is a differences between the hacking someone's brain and becoming that person completely. Remember tank says,"If the Alpha patterns change he will answer whatever they ask". It's just a way of getting information from someone(much like the real world, CIA or FBI also uses similar methods)
ReplyDeleteI believe it's still mystery how Smith do that?
to trukeith,
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing your view with me.
I believe it is an interesting hypothesis,
it may be true. Anyway,I am not completely
convinced either that
there is a matrix within matrix.
But, how could you explain that chosing
the left door and nothing happened(If
the Architech was not lying)?
Also why Smith sabotaged humans attack?
Is there any good for doing this for him?
And Why Architect say "this is the sixth time
we have destroyed zion", why past tense? There are
still 24 hours.
I dont think that the architect was lying but i think he is very well capable of....cause if they were not near human then why would Agent Smith want to take "revenge" that is an essentially human emotion???also the architect smiles only once in his speech while taling of trinity.....
ReplyDeletelet me know guys..........
I'd like to share some of my thoughts on "the anaomoly" or the One, starting with this little true-life tid-bit:
ReplyDeleteThere was a famous mathematician (I reget that I don't remember his name) which once wrote, and I paraphrase: Suppose that I build an all-knowing, intelligent machine, that could NOT LIE. In other words, lying is outside of its universe of discourse. And I ask both it (for the sake of argument we'll call the AI "ALF") and you some true/false questions. First 'True or false, I am 9 feet tall', easily both you and the computer reply false. Now I ask both of you this question, "True or false, ALF will never reply that this sentence is true."...... Every human being knows that the answer to this is true, the computer does not. End paraphrase.
My point is this, we shouldn't assume that Pi, or any other mathematical conumdrum is the anomoly. The struggle for the machines in the world at the time of the Matrix movies is that they can never hope to understand much less control the human mind since humans alone have the ability to think outside given universies of discourse.
Also, the best explaination of some events in reloaded, namely Smith's replication to the outside "real world" and Neo's ability to stop sentinals, is usually the simpliest. There's no need for multiple layers of the matrix. The machines also have a limited resource, electrity. That is why old programs are deleted and upgrades are made to the matrix.
We have already seen that a human brain can be written to in the first matrix (learning kung fu, to fly a heliocopter, etc.). After Neo overwrote smith's code they had "a connection." as Hugo Weaving put it. Thinking in computer terms, they opened a port to each other and could read the algorithms which made the other work. That is why Smith can replicate himself into Bain and leave the Matrix; he learned first hand from Neo how to overwrite neural data and how data transverses "phone lines" to the real world.
Forgetting the archetect for a moment, we've already been shown that agents control the sentinals. So it's quite possible that Neo learned how to stop the sentinals from WITHIN the matrix from Smith when Agent smith tryed to replicate Neo. The mystery is how Neo accomplishes this from outside the matrix and I believe the answer lies in the fact that every human is now a cyborg; perhaps with a neurotransmitter immbeded that Neo was able to hack....
My complements to Jason Payne for pointing out some of the sublties of reloaded: 101, 303, and 314, but I believe you might be reading too much into them, as i see no need for the "real world" to be anything but that.
Caio,
xiphias
I too admit that Human brain can be over written (As loading kung-fu, Pilot Program etc. in M1) So, When Bane enters matrix again he will be projected as Smith coz as Morpheus says in M1 what we see in matrix is just a Mental Projection. If Neo gets the power to stop the sentinels, from Smith. Why Morpheus was not trying to stop? Smith has tried to convert him too!
ReplyDeletei tend to agree with the theory that Zion is simply another means to control those who think they are uncontroled. Besides the obvious reasons of Neo's new powers and Smith "downloading" into a human's brain, there is another small reason which everyone seems to have over looked.
ReplyDeleteNear the beginning of Reloaded, Neo is given the bent spoon from the Oracle's place in part 1. If i'm not mistaken, this spoon was bent inside the matrix and therefore - how did it come to be bent outside the matri?. If i'm wrong and it is possible to remove this or other objects from the matrix... then how is this spoon bent? It was bent by the little kids mind and therefore should not be bent, as it is, outside of the matrix!! Unless Zion is actually a just another matrix-like program designed to blind the anomilies into believing that they are actually rebeling against the system.
I do not believe that these machines would allow the anomilies free reign in the real world (although it did look like they are more than competent of dealing with them with all those sentinels). This would pose too much of a risk as eventually, one of the groups of anomilies would find a way to cause problems with the matrix from the outside (destroy power or something). These machines, who have planned the Matrix amd the loop of "The One" program so perfectly, do not look like they would allow such an obvious risk. It seems inevitable that they would find a way to control even those whoose brain do not accept the Matrix.= (The 1% which the architect speeks of), so long as "The One" can come along and wipe them out every once in a while!!
The spoon is bent by the mind of the kid outside the matrix...This does not make sense. Ok it makes sense, but then shouldn't the kid actually be the one??
ReplyDeleteNO!!!
ReplyDeleteremember, in the matrix, anbody can defy the (programmed) rules of nature. Such as all the anomilies being able to defy gravity (to an extent). Neo himself, was able to bend the spoon "with his mind". Do you not remember the kid in The Matrix (first part) saying "do not try to bend the spoon, that would be immpossible, rather try to realise that there is no spoon". If this is true then how did he manage to deliver this none existent spoon to Neo?? (Unless Neo recieved the spoon in a place which is itself, not real!)
Granted, it could be a real spoon that he just bent to remind Neo, but wouldnt that be a useless thing to do?
How do we know that spoon was bent
ReplyDelete(I mean the real spoon which was given to Neo in Zion)?.
As far as I could see it was an
old metallic spoon. But, everything
is old and not well-shaped in Zion.
For god's sake, look at what they wear
in zion and the matrix. It seems stupid
idea but may be the kid just wanted
to say hello to neo and send a spoon
to help Neo to remember him.
Well, you can ask then what is
the purpose of this scene?
Hmm, Yes I admit, this is a stupid idea:))
yes i agree!! if this scene had no significance except to remind Neo of the boy, then why did it not get cut out?? it happens so quickly and most people dont even realise what the boy says. I still think that sending Neo a spoon would be a pretty useless and stupid thing to do, if there is no purpose to it. I'm also pretty sure that the spoon was bent (a lot actually).
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts on the spoon,
ReplyDeleteSince Neo realized that hey has many powers of the one, the delivery of the spoon was to inform neo that the kid successfully escaped the matrix. maybe nothing more, but I suspect that we will see some significance with the kid in revolutions.
It's been awhile, but I must vent once again...
ReplyDelete1.) A small insight for those who've seen the Revolutions trailer; Neo fights Smith one on one again (as in M1). I think it's safe to assume that this will be Bane projected as Smith, and one should note the other agent Smiths in the background of the alley way to be almost like graphical artifacts.
I also see a return to truely dramatic scenes in the next film. In M1, all but 3 of the Neb's crew, characters that we as an audience died horrible vicious deaths in Cipher's little coup. This was somehow lost in Reloaded, and I can see now that the brutality in M1 served a purpose that properly conveyed a sense of real repression on part of the machines. (They slaughter human beings as if they were animals). Sorry to be so pessimistic, but the converse was also true in the Animatrix.
2.) Anyone have any thoughts on how both Enter the Matrix and Animatrix will play a role in Revolutions?
3.)
Ooops,
ReplyDeleteIn point #1
" In M1, all but 3 of the Neb's crew, characters that we as an audience died horrible vicious deaths in Cipher's little coup."
I meant:
In M1, all but 3 of the Neb's crew, characters that we as an audience felt connected to, died horrible vicious deaths in Cipher's little coup.
Perhaps the fact that Neo was able to destroy the setinals at the end of the movie indicates multiple matrices, but I think that it is not unreasonable to entertain the idea that the movie is saying something about the nature of actual reality, that in fact we all have the power to manifest and change the physical word, that the world as we know it is as real as we accept it to be and if we choose to exclude or manipulate things in our personal reality and experience we can through application of belief alone; each individual is the center of its universe, and we are all of mutual mindship, the world being a fluid hologram that relys on mind to shape and govern it; Neo could have stopped those setinals while in the 'real' world simply because something of this nature is in fact possible in the real world, in our real world, and Neo became aware of his divinity following his short stint in the Source with the Architect. Though personally I do like the idea of Zion being the another Matrix level, we'll see in a few months. The Holographic Universe Theory by Karl Pribram: http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html
ReplyDeleteIt's a dream...
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that Switch in M1 is the only character that wears white while in the matrix?
ReplyDeleteWhat about Neos force outside the Matix NOW?
ReplyDeleteExplainations?
Greetinx
cmk12
its a good film, just enjoy it
ReplyDelete